Discussion:
[PATCH] add exFAT driver
(too old to reply)
Vyacheslav Dubeyko
2013-08-30 11:15:06 UTC
Permalink
Samsung released their exFAT (and FAT12/16/32) driver under the GPLv2, it is
based on the in-kernel FAT driver and can be obtained from [1].
This patch adds version 1.2.4 of the exfat driver, sans the ifdefs for older
kernel versions and ported to Linux 3.11.
[1] http://opensource.samsung.com search for exfat
original authors: Joosun Hahn
Sung-Kwan Kim
Why original authors don't participate in submission of driver?

Anyway, it makes sense to prepare patch set instead of one huge patch.
Could you, please, prepare patch set?

And you should add linux-fsdevel list in CC for any discussion about
file system drivers.

Thanks,
Vyacheslav Dubeyko.

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Greg Kroah-Hartman
2013-08-30 15:39:47 UTC
Permalink
Samsung released their exFAT (and FAT12/16/32) driver under the GPLv2, it is
based on the in-kernel FAT driver and can be obtained from [1].
This patch adds version 1.2.4 of the exfat driver, sans the ifdefs for older
kernel versions and ported to Linux 3.11.
[1] http://opensource.samsung.com search for exfat
original authors: Joosun Hahn
Sung-Kwan Kim
For staging drivers I need a maintainer that is going to take the time
to shephard it into the core kernel tree. See other TODO files for
how that person is defined. Are you going to be willing to do this?

If so, can you please resend it with those changes to the TODO file, and
add a MAINTAINERS file entry?

Also, I would really like to get a signed-off-by: from the Samsung
authors for this patch, can you do that as well please?

thanks,

greg k-h
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Benjamin Valentin
2013-09-25 16:36:41 UTC
Permalink
Am Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:42:05 -0700
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
For staging drivers I need a maintainer that is going to take the time
to shephard it into the core kernel tree. See other TODO files for
how that person is defined. Are you going to be willing to do this?
I can see what I can do.

I've cleaned up the code a bit, especially where it would redefine
kernel functions. [1] Should I submit the end result, one file per
patch, or begin with the original code and submit patches on top of
that?

Also, the driver would define it's own data types like
typedef unsigned int UINT32;

I've replaced that with u32, etc as the naming implied the bit size
would matter. (And it probably does for the on-disk file system
structures, but they are used for everything) Is there any disadvantage
to this over using the standard C types?
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Also, I would really like to get a signed-off-by: from the Samsung
authors for this patch, can you do that as well please?
I've tried reaching them by their last public e-mail addresses I could
find, but they would either bounce or I got no reply.

[1] https://github.com/benpicco/linux_exfat-staging/commits/exfat
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Anca Emanuel
2013-09-25 17:00:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 7:36 PM, Benjamin Valentin
Post by Benjamin Valentin
Am Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:42:05 -0700
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
For staging drivers I need a maintainer that is going to take the time
to shephard it into the core kernel tree. See other TODO files for
how that person is defined. Are you going to be willing to do this?
I can see what I can do.
I've cleaned up the code a bit, especially where it would redefine
kernel functions. [1] Should I submit the end result, one file per
patch, or begin with the original code and submit patches on top of
that?
For staging code:
1. It must pass compile.
2. you have an TODO file with things to do to clean it up to the
standard quality of the kernel.
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Greg Kroah-Hartman
2013-09-25 17:27:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin Valentin
Am Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:42:05 -0700
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
For staging drivers I need a maintainer that is going to take the time
to shephard it into the core kernel tree. See other TODO files for
how that person is defined. Are you going to be willing to do this?
I can see what I can do.
Great.
Post by Benjamin Valentin
I've cleaned up the code a bit, especially where it would redefine
kernel functions. [1] Should I submit the end result, one file per
patch, or begin with the original code and submit patches on top of
that?
Probably start with the original submission from Samsung, with their
signed-off-by: lines, and then add patches afterward that from you with
your fixes / cleanups. That shows the development effort and gives
everyone the proper credit/blame :)
Post by Benjamin Valentin
Also, the driver would define it's own data types like
typedef unsigned int UINT32;
I've replaced that with u32, etc as the naming implied the bit size
would matter. (And it probably does for the on-disk file system
structures, but they are used for everything) Is there any disadvantage
to this over using the standard C types?
Those _are_ the standard kernel C types, so that's the correct thing to
do.
Post by Benjamin Valentin
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Also, I would really like to get a signed-off-by: from the Samsung
authors for this patch, can you do that as well please?
I've tried reaching them by their last public e-mail addresses I could
find, but they would either bounce or I got no reply.
Who did you contact at Samsung? I'll be visiting there in a week so I
can try to track some people done in person. I really want their
signed-off-by: on the patch, as it is their code to start with, and it's
a bit rude to not get their approval for the code to be merged.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Matthew Garrett
2013-09-25 18:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Who did you contact at Samsung? I'll be visiting there in a week so I
can try to track some people done in person. I really want their
signed-off-by: on the patch, as it is their code to start with, and it's
a bit rude to not get their approval for the code to be merged.
It's arguably rude, but it's fine under the certificate of origin.
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Greg Kroah-Hartman
2013-09-25 18:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Garrett
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Who did you contact at Samsung? I'll be visiting there in a week so I
can try to track some people done in person. I really want their
signed-off-by: on the patch, as it is their code to start with, and it's
a bit rude to not get their approval for the code to be merged.
It's arguably rude, but it's fine under the certificate of origin.
Oh, I totally agree, just trying to be nice here. If a company objects
to having their code included in the tree, we should always take that
into consideration, especially given the ability for others to maintain
it. We've done this for years, nothing new here at all.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Alexander Holler
2013-09-25 19:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Matthew Garrett
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Who did you contact at Samsung? I'll be visiting there in a week so I
can try to track some people done in person. I really want their
signed-off-by: on the patch, as it is their code to start with, and it's
a bit rude to not get their approval for the code to be merged.
It's arguably rude, but it's fine under the certificate of origin.
Oh, I totally agree, just trying to be nice here. If a company objects
to having their code included in the tree, we should always take that
into consideration, especially given the ability for others to maintain
it. We've done this for years, nothing new here at all.
Maybe a silly question, but isn't exFAT protected by some MS owned
patents which might drive Linux users into the hand of MS lawyers as
already happened with FAT? It would make me wonder if not. Maybe you
could ask Samsung about that too, when you are there.

Regards,

Alexander Holler
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Greg Kroah-Hartman
2013-09-25 20:21:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Holler
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Matthew Garrett
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Who did you contact at Samsung? I'll be visiting there in a week so I
can try to track some people done in person. I really want their
signed-off-by: on the patch, as it is their code to start with, and it's
a bit rude to not get their approval for the code to be merged.
It's arguably rude, but it's fine under the certificate of origin.
Oh, I totally agree, just trying to be nice here. If a company objects
to having their code included in the tree, we should always take that
into consideration, especially given the ability for others to maintain
it. We've done this for years, nothing new here at all.
Maybe a silly question, but isn't exFAT protected by some MS owned
patents which might drive Linux users into the hand of MS lawyers as
already happened with FAT? It would make me wonder if not. Maybe you
could ask Samsung about that too, when you are there.
Because Samsung released the code under the GPLv2, and their lawyers
understand what that means, should answer any question you might have
about this.

thanks,

greg k-h
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Alexander Holler
2013-09-25 20:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Alexander Holler
Maybe a silly question, but isn't exFAT protected by some MS owned
patents which might drive Linux users into the hand of MS lawyers as
already happened with FAT? It would make me wonder if not. Maybe you
could ask Samsung about that too, when you are there.
Because Samsung released the code under the GPLv2, and their lawyers
understand what that means, should answer any question you might have
about this.
thanks,
I'll have to thank for the clarification.

Alexander Holler

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Anton Altaparmakov
2013-09-25 21:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Alexander Holler
Maybe a silly question, but isn't exFAT protected by some MS owned
patents which might drive Linux users into the hand of MS lawyers as
already happened with FAT?
Yes, it is. You cannot use exFAT without a Microsoft patent license (unless you live in countries without software patents perhaps).
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Alexander Holler
It would make me wonder if not. Maybe you could ask Samsung about that too, when you are there.
Because Samsung released the code under the GPLv2, and their lawyers
understand what that means, should answer any question you might have
about this.
Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about. Samsung modified the GPL-ed FAT driver to make it work with exFAT. Therefore their exFAT driver was GPL as a derived work. They got caught and had to release the source code.

It has NOTHING to do with what their lawyers understand, etc, and if you are really going to be visiting Samsung and if they are willing to talk to you about it you will be retracting what you wrote above in a hurry... Sorry I cannot say more but I strongly suggest NOT to use this "GPL-ed exFAT driver" under any circumstances unless you get a patent license from Microsoft first.

Best regards,

Anton
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
thanks,
greg k-h
--
Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at with @)
Unix Support, Computing Service, University of Cambridge
J.J. Thomson Avenue, Cambridge, CB3 0RB, UK

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Alexander Holler
2013-09-25 22:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Altaparmakov
Hi,
Post by Alexander Holler
Maybe a silly question, but isn't exFAT protected by some MS owned
patents which might drive Linux users into the hand of MS lawyers as
already happened with FAT?
Yes, it is. You cannot use exFAT without a Microsoft patent license (unless you live in countries without software patents perhaps).
That part about software patents is a farce. Here in Germany (and as I
understood in whole Europe), software patents should not exist. But the
FAT patent got approved by our Bungesgerichtshof, which is something
like the Federal Supreme court in the US.

Regards,

Alexander Holler

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Greg Kroah-Hartman
2013-09-25 22:10:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Altaparmakov
Hi,
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Alexander Holler
Maybe a silly question, but isn't exFAT protected by some MS owned
patents which might drive Linux users into the hand of MS lawyers as
already happened with FAT?
Yes, it is. You cannot use exFAT without a Microsoft patent license
(unless you live in countries without software patents perhaps).
Given that you that you are not a Microsoft representative, nor a
Samsung employee, I don't understand how you can make such a definitive
statement.
Post by Anton Altaparmakov
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Alexander Holler
It would make me wonder if not. Maybe you could ask Samsung about
that too, when you are there.
Because Samsung released the code under the GPLv2, and their lawyers
understand what that means, should answer any question you might have
about this.
Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.
Ah, that's a lovely way to engage in a conversation.
Post by Anton Altaparmakov
Samsung modified the GPL-ed FAT driver to make it work with exFAT.
Therefore their exFAT driver was GPL as a derived work. They got
caught and had to release the source code.
And now you claim to be a Samsung representative again, I think your
country has some bad liable laws you might wish to watch out for...

This isn't going to go very far, so I'll just not respond anymore, it's
not going to be productive, and given that I don't see your name on the
code here, I don't see why I need to.

Please stick to technical discussions about the code on the kernel
mailing lists. Legal discussions can be left up to the lawyers, of
which we are not.

greg k-h
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Alexander Holler
2013-09-25 22:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Please stick to technical discussions about the code on the kernel
mailing lists. Legal discussions can be left up to the lawyers, of
which we are not.
Hmm, but I would like to know if someone has to fear getting owned by
Microsoft if he would use that driver.

Giving the rumours about Linux companies having to pay Microsoft and
giving the fact that all of those licencees seem to don't have to speak
about what Microsoft claims patents for and for what they have to pay, I
obviously think adding that driver to Linux and thus making exFAT more
general accepted is a very bad idea.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer too, but as a responsible Linux developer, I
should at least be able to warn other parities when they approach me and
want to use exFAT. Doing such without the maybe necessary license might
drive small companies into the ground because most of them are unable to
even think about having the money needed to talk with Microsoft lawyers
in front of a court.

Regards,

Alexander Holler

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Matthew Garrett
2013-09-25 22:53:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Holler
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Please stick to technical discussions about the code on the kernel
mailing lists. Legal discussions can be left up to the lawyers, of
which we are not.
Hmm, but I would like to know if someone has to fear getting owned by
Microsoft if he would use that driver.
Nobody should ever assume that any piece of code they receive is free of
third party patent claims, no matter where the code came from.
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Anton Altaparmakov
2013-09-26 08:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Alexander Holler
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Please stick to technical discussions about the code on the kernel
mailing lists. Legal discussions can be left up to the lawyers, of
which we are not.
Hmm, but I would like to know if someone has to fear getting owned by
Microsoft if he would use that driver.
Giving the rumours about Linux companies having to pay Microsoft and
giving the fact that all of those licencees seem to don't have to speak
about what Microsoft claims patents for and for what they have to pay, I
obviously think adding that driver to Linux and thus making exFAT more
general accepted is a very bad idea.
Of course, I'm not a lawyer too, but as a responsible Linux developer, I
should at least be able to warn other parities when they approach me and
want to use exFAT. Doing such without the maybe necessary license might
drive small companies into the ground because most of them are unable to
even think about having the money needed to talk with Microsoft lawyers
in front of a court.
Exactly. That is all I was trying to do. Warn people/companies not to use the driver because they may get sued for using it. As the below Microsoft exFAT licensing page says at the bottom:

<quote>
Please note that open source or other publicly available implementations of exFAT do not include an IP license from Microsoft. For licensing information, please contact ***@microsoft.com.
</quote>

Above is from bottom of:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/intellectualproperty/IPLicensing/Programs/exFATFileSystem.aspx

Best regards,

Anton
--
Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at with @)
Unix Support, Computing Service, University of Cambridge
J.J. Thomson Avenue, Cambridge, CB3 0RB, UK

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Dan Carpenter
2013-09-26 10:41:53 UTC
Permalink
Anton, I already told you politely in a private email that you are being
offtopic. This is professional email list for programmers. Most of us
are forbidden to discuss laws except with our corporate legal dept.
None of us are lawyers. We're not qualified to read any of your links
or interpret how they apply to anyone. We can't help you or respond to
you.

In other words, shut the fuck up. Let's not continue this thread.

regards,
dan carpenter

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Alexander Holler
2013-09-26 10:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Carpenter
Anton, I already told you politely in a private email that you are being
offtopic. This is professional email list for programmers. Most of us
are forbidden to discuss laws except with our corporate legal dept.
None of us are lawyers. We're not qualified to read any of your links
or interpret how they apply to anyone. We can't help you or respond to
you.
In other words, shut the fuck up. Let's not continue this thread.
First my first name is Alexander and not Anton, and second I haven't
respond to any mail on that topic after I received your private mail.

And third, "the fuck" just describes the topic perfectly.

Regards,

Alexander Holler

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Dan Carpenter
2013-09-26 11:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexander Holler
Post by Dan Carpenter
Anton, I already told you politely in a private email that you are being
offtopic. This is professional email list for programmers. Most of us
are forbidden to discuss laws except with our corporate legal dept.
None of us are lawyers. We're not qualified to read any of your links
or interpret how they apply to anyone. We can't help you or respond to
you.
In other words, shut the fuck up. Let's not continue this thread.
First my first name is Alexander and not Anton, and second I haven't
respond to any mail on that topic after I received your private mail.
No, Alexander, you're cool. The email was meant specifically for Aton.
:P

regards,
dan carpenter

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Anton Altaparmakov
2013-09-26 08:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Anton Altaparmakov
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Alexander Holler
Maybe a silly question, but isn't exFAT protected by some MS owned
patents which might drive Linux users into the hand of MS lawyers as
already happened with FAT?
Yes, it is. You cannot use exFAT without a Microsoft patent license
(unless you live in countries without software patents perhaps).
Given that you that you are not a Microsoft representative, nor a
Samsung employee, I don't understand how you can make such a definitive
statement.
Have you actually read the source code that was released?

May I quote just one bit:

from exfat_1.2.4/exfat.c (available from http://opensource.samsung.com - just search for exfat) at the top:

/* Some of the source code in this file came from "linux/fs/fat/misc.c". */
/*
* linux/fs/fat/misc.c
*
* Written 1992,1993 by Werner Almesberger
* 22/11/2000 - Fixed fat_date_unix2dos for dates earlier than 01/01/1980
* and date_dos2unix for date==0 by Igor Zhbanov(***@uniyar.ac.ru)
*/

That is somewhat conclusively a derivative work is it not?

Also, have a read of this article:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTQzODQ

Which explains further who made them open source it after they saw the leaked code on github.

So even without resorting to knowledge I may not discuss it is pretty conclusive that what I said is correct as anyone driving google can find for themselves as I pointed out above...
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Anton Altaparmakov
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Alexander Holler
It would make me wonder if not. Maybe you could ask Samsung about
that too, when you are there.
Because Samsung released the code under the GPLv2, and their lawyers
understand what that means, should answer any question you might have
about this.
Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.
Ah, that's a lovely way to engage in a conversation.
I did say sorry! (-;
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Anton Altaparmakov
Samsung modified the GPL-ed FAT driver to make it work with exFAT.
Therefore their exFAT driver was GPL as a derived work. They got
caught and had to release the source code.
And now you claim to be a Samsung representative again, I think your
country has some bad liable laws you might wish to watch out for...
I am not claiming anything and least of all to be representing Samsung!!!

Libel implies untruth and as you can see above I am only stating what anyone can readily find on google.
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
This isn't going to go very far, so I'll just not respond anymore, it's
not going to be productive, and given that I don't see your name on the
code here, I don't see why I need to.
Please stick to technical discussions about the code on the kernel
mailing lists. Legal discussions can be left up to the lawyers, of
which we are not.
I agree, but then please stop making public assertions that people can use the exfat driver legally. You just yourself said you are not a lawyer so I do not understand how you can make your assertion!

If anyone cares, here is Microsoft's exFAT licensing page which I strongly recommend you read before you use that driver:

http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/legal/intellectualproperty/IPLicensing/Programs/exFATFileSystem.aspx

Also if you search google for "exFAT patent" you can find some that way but there are also others that are not found that way but that are clearly essential for any exFAT implementation (according to the technical review I did of them). I am not sure whether I am allowed to give a list or not so I will refrain from doing so.

Best regards,

Anton
--
Anton Altaparmakov <aia21 at cam.ac.uk> (replace at with @)
Unix Support, Computing Service, University of Cambridge
J.J. Thomson Avenue, Cambridge, CB3 0RB, UK

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Benjamin Valentin
2013-09-25 21:57:32 UTC
Permalink
Am Wed, 25 Sep 2013 10:27:04 -0700
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Benjamin Valentin
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Also, I would really like to get a signed-off-by: from the Samsung
authors for this patch, can you do that as well please?
I've tried reaching them by their last public e-mail addresses I
could find, but they would either bounce or I got no reply.
Who did you contact at Samsung? I'll be visiting there in a week so I
can try to track some people done in person. I really want their
signed-off-by: on the patch, as it is their code to start with, and
it's a bit rude to not get their approval for the code to be merged.
I didn't really know who to contact at Samsung, so I've searched the web
for Joosun Hahn and Sung-Kwan Kim. They both had addresses from the
Memory & Storage Architecture Lab at Seoul National University, but
they seem no longer active.
I've also tried the inquiry form on the Samsung web page, but got no
reply.

It'd be great if you could get Samsung to work on this too, I guess
they weren't originally so keen on mainlining it when it took the
Software Freedom Conservancy to get them to release the code [1],
but now that it's out in the open they might as well take the benefits
from mainline inclusion.

[1] http://sfconservancy.org/news/2013/aug/16/exfat-samsung/
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Greg Kroah-Hartman
2013-09-25 22:11:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Benjamin Valentin
Am Wed, 25 Sep 2013 10:27:04 -0700
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Post by Benjamin Valentin
Post by Greg Kroah-Hartman
Also, I would really like to get a signed-off-by: from the Samsung
authors for this patch, can you do that as well please?
I've tried reaching them by their last public e-mail addresses I
could find, but they would either bounce or I got no reply.
Who did you contact at Samsung? I'll be visiting there in a week so I
can try to track some people done in person. I really want their
signed-off-by: on the patch, as it is their code to start with, and
it's a bit rude to not get their approval for the code to be merged.
I didn't really know who to contact at Samsung, so I've searched the web
for Joosun Hahn and Sung-Kwan Kim. They both had addresses from the
Memory & Storage Architecture Lab at Seoul National University, but
they seem no longer active.
I've also tried the inquiry form on the Samsung web page, but got no
reply.
Ok, I'll try to track the people responsible for this down when I visit.
In the mean time, you can continue to work on cleaning up the code :)

thanks,

greg k-h
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